The Truth About Pakistan’s “SIM Database”
SIM Database in Pakistan (2026) — Why No Public Search Tool Exists, and What You Can Legally Check Instead
There is no public, searchable “sim database” in Pakistan where you type in a stranger’s mobile number and get back a name, CNIC, or home address — the only legitimate SIM-related lookup the Pakistan Telecommunication Authority (PTA) offers is a self-check of your own CNIC, via SMS to 668 or the free portal cnic.sims.pk, and no website calling itself a “fresh sim database”, “live sim database”, or “online sim database” can lawfully or technically hand you someone else’s information.
The Myth, Explained
What people actually mean by “a SIM database” — and why it doesn’t exist the way you think
When most people search “sim database”, “sim database online”, or “sim data information”, what they are picturing is one central government website where you can type any Pakistani mobile number and instantly see the registered owner’s full name, CNIC number, and home address — and that website has never existed, does not exist today, and cannot lawfully be built by anyone outside a formal criminal investigation.
This belief is understandable. Pakistan really does run one of the world’s strictest SIM-registration regimes: every active connection is tied to a biometrically verified CNIC, and the country has roughly 208 million active SIMs on its networks as of PTA’s Telecom Indicators for June 2026. With that much identity data sitting somewhere, it feels logical that there must be a searchable master list. There is a registry — but a registry that operators and PTA use internally to enforce the SIM cap and biometric rules is not the same thing as a public search engine, and the two get conflated constantly in casual conversation and, more dangerously, in search-engine marketing by scam sites.
Part of the confusion also comes from real, legitimate tools that sound bigger than they are. PTA’s own SMS shortcode 668 and the web portal cnic.sims.pk genuinely do search “the database” — but only the slice of it tied to the CNIC you type in, and only to return a count of SIMs, never a name or address, and never anyone else’s CNIC. If you want the full walkthrough of how that self-check works and what every field on the result page means, our complete guide to checking your own SIM owner details covers it step by step. That is fundamentally different from what “fresh sim database” or “livesim database” search terms are really chasing: a way to identify a stranger from just their number.
It is also worth separating this page’s angle from two related myths we cover elsewhere on this site. If what brought you here is a specific brand name — a site or app claiming to be “the official Jazz database” or “PTA SIM tracker app” — that impersonation pattern is covered in detail on our Pak SIM Data page. If what you actually want is to find someone’s live location from their number, that is a separate and even more serious myth addressed on our Live SIM Tracker page. This page deals with the general belief that a big, browsable, public database exists at all — under any of its many search names.
Is there a free SIM database in Pakistan? No free (or paid) public database returns another person’s SIM ownership details in Pakistan. The only free tool that legitimately exists is cnic.sims.pk, and it only ever returns a count of SIMs registered against the CNIC you personally enter — never a stranger’s name or address, and never for a number you do not control the CNIC behind.
It also helps to notice how these search phrases cluster. “Sim database online”, “sim database pak”, “onlinesim database”, and “sim data base online com” are all near-identical variations typed by people with the exact same intent — slightly different spelling, slightly different word order, same underlying wish for a stranger-lookup tool. Search-engine marketers exploit this by cloning near-identical pages under dozens of domain variations, each one optimised for one particular misspelling. Recognising that these are all the same non-existent product, wearing different names, is often enough to stop the search before it reaches a scam page at all.
Behind the Curtain
PTA’s real internal SIM registry — and why it has no public search interface
PTA and the mobile operators do maintain an internal subscriber registry that ties every SIM to a CNIC for biometric verification and the 8-SIM cap, but that registry has never been opened to the public as a search tool — the only public-facing interface PTA runs is the self-check counter at cnic.sims.pk (mirrored by SMS to 668), and it was verified first-hand on 30 August 2026 to return only a dated table of SIM counts, never identity details.
Here is exactly what that portal shows, confirmed by a real, live run of it: the page itself is branded “PMD SIM Information System”, has separate tabs for CNIC and Foreign ID (for NICOP/POC holders), and sits behind a reCAPTCHA to stop automated scraping. Submit a valid 13-digit CNIC and the result is a table with the columns Network | Voice+Data SIMs | Data Only SIMs | Total SIMs, one row for each of the four networks — Jazz, Telenor, Ufone, and Zong — shown even when the count is zero, plus a Total row, with your ID number and the date printed at the top. That is the entire result. There are no activation dates, no phone numbers, no subscriber names, and nothing resembling a “profile” of you or anyone else.
Two related shortcodes get lumped into the same “sim database” search intent, and both deserve the same clarification. 667 is PTA’s mobile-number-portability (MNP) self-check: you SMS the word MNP to 667 from the SIM whose own record you want, and the reply shows that sending SIM’s own registered name, an often-masked CNIC, IMSI, activation date, and connection type. It only ever works on the SIM physically in your hand — it is not, and has never been, a way to type in someone else’s number and pull their file. Separately, 76367 lets you SMS the letter “N” followed by an 11-digit number (for example, “N 03001234567”) for about Rs 2 plus tax, and the reply names only that number’s current network — Jazz, Zong, Telenor, or Ufone — nothing else. No name, no CNIC, no address, no location, ever, from either code.
Does PTA have a public SIM database? No. PTA operates a self-check counter, not a public database. The distinction matters: a database implies you can browse or query arbitrary records; a self-check counter only ever answers one question — “how many SIMs are registered against this specific CNIC?” — and only for the identity document you personally supply.
One more detail worth knowing if you are trying to make sense of the industry landscape behind these numbers: ONIC, the app-first digital SIM brand, is not a separate row on the cnic.sims.pk results because it operates under PTML/Ufone — its SIMs are already folded into the Ufone/PTML figure. Similarly, Telenor Pakistan’s amalgamation into PTML (Ufone’s parent company) formally completed on 1 July 2026, a court- and PTA-supervised process corroborated by multiple 2026 press reports and confirmed to the PTA Senate committee in August 2026. Even as ownership structures merge, the underlying self-check tool and its four-network format stay the same.
There is also a sound policy reason PTA has never opened this registry to public search, beyond the fact that no law authorises it: a browsable database of 208 million people’s SIM holdings tied to CNIC numbers would itself be an enormous security liability, a single point of failure that could be scraped, breached, or resold at a scale far beyond anything a scam site could achieve alone. Keeping the public interface narrow — one CNIC in, one count out, no browsing, no bulk export — is a deliberate design choice, not a missing feature. Any site claiming to offer the broader version is not offering a better product; it is offering something PTA has specifically chosen never to build, for the public’s own protection.
Read the Bait
Why “fresh sim database” and “sim database online free” are red-flag phrases
The phrase “fresh sim database” is marketing language invented by scam operators to imply they hold newly leaked or newly updated subscriber records for sale or free download — no legitimate product by that description exists, and any site using that wording is signalling precisely the kind of unauthorised identity-data handling that PECA 2016 makes a criminal offence.
Think about what “fresh” is doing rhetorically. It borrows the language of stock or inventory — “fresh data”, “updated database”, “2026 leaked records” — to make an illegal claim sound like a normal commercial product. Real telecom regulators do not sell or freely distribute subscriber identity data, full stop, in any “fresh” or “stale” version. If a site is bragging about how recently its data was “updated”, that is a tell that it is trying to sound credible rather than actually being credible.
This bait language often rides on real news the public half-remembers. A joint investigation by the FIA and a Joint Investigation Team found that 2.7 million citizen records had been stolen or compromised between 2019 and 2023, as reported by Dawn in March 2024. That was a genuine, serious breach — but it was a historical theft of past records, not a live, ongoing feed that any current website is plugged into. Scam operators exploit public awareness of that breach, dropping phrases like “leaked NADRA data” or “fresh sim database 2026” to imply their tool draws on it. It does not, because there is no current pipeline from that 2019–2023 breach (or any other) into a public search tool, then or now.
The same suspicion applies to “live sim database” and “livesim database” phrasing, which usually signals a claim to real-time location tracking rather than static records — a distinct and equally false promise that we unpack fully on our Live SIM Tracker page. And generic-sounding domain names like “simdatabase online com” or “sim database pak” are usually unaffiliated, disposable websites built purely to rank on these keywords; when the bait instead impersonates a specific named brand or app, that pattern is covered on our Pak SIM Data page.
What is “fresh SIM database”? It is not a real product or service. It is a phrase used by unauthorised or fraudulent websites to make an illegal data-lookup claim sound like a legitimate, up-to-date commercial offering. No PTA-authorised channel uses this term, and no legitimate free public database of SIM owners changes hands online in this way, whether described as “fresh”, “updated”, or “2026 edition”.
What’s Actually Behind the Page
What a “sim database online” site actually is, once you look under the hood
In practice, almost every site ranking for “sim database online”, “onlinesim database”, or “sim data base online com” is one of three things: an ad-revenue funnel that never returns a real result, a form built purely to harvest the CNIC and phone numbers visitors type into it, or an Android APK bundled with a lookup app that requests contacts, SMS, and location permissions it has no legitimate reason to need.
Walking through each pattern helps you recognise it instantly the next time you land on one:
✅ What a genuine PTA tool looks like
- Single official domain: cnic.sims.pk, nothing else
- Asks only for the ID number you are checking — your own
- Returns a count table instantly, no payment, no app
- No request to share, subscribe, or “unlock” anything
- Branded “PMD SIM Information System”, PTA-linked
🚫 What a fake “sim database” site looks like
- Domain names like “simdatabase online com” or copycat spellings
- Asks for someone else’s number to reveal identity
- Endless “verifying…” spinner or fake countdown timer
- Demands a WhatsApp share or app download to “unlock” results
- No link back to pta.gov.pk anywhere on the page
The ad-revenue funnel is the most common version. You land on a page promising a “sim database online free” search, type a number, and are shown a spinning loader that runs for 30, 60, sometimes 90 seconds while the page serves you pop-unders and interstitial ads. The “result” either never loads, loads a generic message, or asks you to “verify you are human” by completing a survey or subscribing to a premium SMS service — at which point you are billed, not informed.
The CNIC-harvesting form is more dangerous. Some of these sites do accept an input and return something, but the entire point of the exercise is the data you typed in, not the data supposedly returned. A form asking for a phone number to “look up” may quietly log the number, your IP address, device fingerprint, and any CNIC you enter elsewhere on the same page. That collected data itself becomes a resalable asset for the operator, feeding future scam or spam campaigns — and if you typed in someone else’s number hoping to unmask them, you have also just handed that person’s number to a data broker.
The APK/app version shows up in search and social ads as “SIM Database Pakistan App” or similar, distributed outside the Google Play Store. Installing it typically demands permissions for contacts, SMS, call logs, and precise location — none of which a genuine number-lookup tool needs to function, and all of which give the app’s operator far more of your personal data than the “lookup” ever gives you in return.
Is sim database online real? No. Every version of “sim database online”, “onlinesim database”, or near-identical spellings marketed as a public lookup tool is either non-functional, a data-harvesting operation, or an app requesting excessive permissions. None of them are affiliated with PTA, and none of them can legally or technically return another person’s SIM ownership details.
The Legal Line
The law: why searching for someone else’s SIM or CNIC details is a crime, not a workaround
Under PECA 2016 Section 16, obtaining, using, transmitting, or making available another person’s identity information — including their CNIC number, SIM registration data, or biometric details — without their authorisation is a criminal offence carrying up to three years’ imprisonment, a fine of up to Rs 5,000,000, or both, and this applies whether you are the one operating the “database” or simply the one requesting the lookup.
There is exactly one lawful exception, and it is narrow: a police officer or investigation agency may require a service provider to submit a specific person’s subscriber information when that person is under a formal, active investigation, under the authority of PECA 2016 and the Investigation Rules 2018. This is a legal instrument used by investigators inside a real case file — it requires a specific legal authority, a specific suspect, and a specific procedure through the service provider. It is not a public service, it cannot be requested by a private citizen for their own curiosity, and it should never be described or attempted as a “workaround” for someone who isn’t themselves a law-enforcement officer running an active case.
✅ You CAN (legal & safe)
- Run a full SIM count on your own CNIC via 668 or cnic.sims.pk
- Check your own SIM’s registration via 667 (MNP) from that SIM
- Check any number’s network (not owner) via 76367
- File a formal police/NCCIA report if you are a victim of harassment or fraud
🚫 You must AVOID (illegal / risky)
- Any “sim database”, “fresh database”, or “live tracker” site claiming to reveal a stranger’s identity
- Paying anyone — agent, app, or website — to “pull” someone’s CNIC or address from their number
- Sharing your own CNIC with any site that is not cnic.sims.pk
- Asking a “contact” inside a telecom company for an off-the-record lookup
If your real problem is that someone is misusing a number to harass, threaten, or defraud you, there is a legitimate path — just not a self-service lookup. Report it to the NCCIA (National Cyber Crime Investigation Agency), which took over cybercrime investigation from FIA’s Cybercrime Wing in April 2025, on its 24/7 helpline 1799 (launched 3 June 2025) or via complaint.nccia.gov.pk. Note that the old number “1991” belonged to the FIA’s legacy setup and is no longer the correct number — do not use it. For general telecom complaints (nuisance calls, SIM fraud on your own CNIC, service issues), PTA’s online complaint portal is complaint.pta.gov.pk; PTA also publishes a general helpline number, 0800-55055, on its official site pta.gov.pk. PTA also runs a WhatsApp self-service assistant called RAABTA (formally “PTA Digital Assistant”) at 0315-0055055, launched 26 February 2026, which offers general telecom guidance and complaint-filing help — it is not a lookup service either, but it is a legitimate first stop for reporting a genuine problem.
Spot It Fast
A practical red-flags checklist before you trust any “sim database” site
Before you enter a single digit into any site claiming to be a “sim database”, run it through this checklist — a legitimate PTA tool never asks for anything beyond the ID number you are personally checking, never promises someone else’s details, and never requires payment, sharing, or an app install to “unlock” a result.
- Is the domain anything other than cnic.sims.pk? That alone should end the visit.
- Does it ask you to type someone else’s number to reveal their identity? No legitimate tool does this.
- Does it demand payment via Easypaisa, JazzCash, or a premium SMS subscription to “unlock” a result?
- Does it require sharing the page on WhatsApp or social media before showing anything?
- Does it push you to download an APK from outside the Google Play Store?
- Does it show a fake “verifying your request…” countdown that never actually resolves?
- Does it use bait words like “fresh”, “live”, “leaked”, or “updated 2026 database”?
- Is there no visible link back to pta.gov.pk, no mention of PECA, and no privacy policy?
- Is the writing full of odd grammar, excessive exclamation marks, or urgency (“act now before it’s removed”)?
- Is it hosted on a free or throwaway-looking domain, or does the URL contain random characters?
| Sign | cnic.sims.pk / 668 (real) | Fake “sim database” site |
|---|---|---|
| What it asks for | Your own CNIC or NICOP number only | Someone else’s phone number, framed as a “search” |
| What it returns | A dated count table: network, SIM counts, total | Nothing real — a spinner, a paywall, or fabricated text |
| Cost | Free online, or ~Rs 2 incl. tax by SMS | Often “free” bait that leads to a hidden charge |
| Data it takes from you | Only the CNIC you choose to enter, not stored publicly | Number, CNIC, device data — often resold or reused |
| Branding | “PMD SIM Information System”, reCAPTCHA, PTA-linked | Generic template, no PTA reference, stock photos |
If a site fails even one of these checks, close the tab. There is no version of a “sim data information” portal that legitimately needs someone else’s number to work — every real, lawful self-check in Pakistan operates on the identity document you personally hold.
One further pattern worth naming explicitly: any “sim database” site or agent that asks you to forward an OTP (one-time password) you just received, or to read out a code sent to your phone, is not running a lookup at all — it is very likely attempting a SIM-swap or account-takeover fraud using your own number as the target. A genuine SIM count check never triggers an OTP to your phone, because it only reads a count against a CNIC; it has no reason to send you a verification code at all. Treat any unsolicited OTP request tied to a “free sim check” offer as an active fraud attempt and do not share the code with anyone.
You may also see viral claims about a sweeping new enforcement drive with a name like “Operation Clean Sweep 3.0” and a “72-hour suspension window” for unverified SIMs. Treat this specific claim with caution: it has circulated widely on social media, but there is no PTA source confirming a programme by that name or with that mechanism. It should not be treated as a real, currently running enforcement action, and it has no bearing on whether any “sim database” site is legitimate.
Do This Instead
The real, legal way to check SIM details — on your own CNIC, in under a minute
To check real SIM data in Pakistan legally, SMS your 13-digit CNIC (no dashes) to 668 for about Rs 2 including tax, or enter the same CNIC at the free portal cnic.sims.pk from anywhere in the world — both return an operator-wise count of every SIM legally registered on your identity, and neither can ever return anyone else’s details.
Here is the exact step-by-step for both official routes:
- Open your SMS app and compose a new message to 668. Type your 13-digit CNIC number with no dashes or spaces, and send. You will be charged roughly Rs 2 including tax, and the reply arrives within seconds with your per-operator SIM count.
- Alternatively, from any device with internet access — inside Pakistan or overseas, no app or login required — open cnic.sims.pk, select the CNIC tab (or the Foreign ID tab if you hold a NICOP/POC), enter your number, complete the reCAPTCHA, and submit.
- Read the result table: Network, Voice+Data SIMs, Data Only SIMs, Total SIMs, with a row for Jazz, Telenor, Ufone, and Zong (even at zero) and a Total row at the bottom.
- If any SIM count looks unfamiliar or higher than you expect, contact the relevant operator’s helpline directly — Jazz on 111 or 111-300-300, Telenor on 345 or 111-345-100, Ufone on 333 or 111-333-100, Zong on 310 or 111-222-111 — to ask about disowning a SIM you did not register.
- Remember the legal cap while you review your results: 8 SIMs total per CNIC (5 voice + 3 data), set by the Supreme Court of Pakistan on 5 November 2015, or 2 SIMs for foreign nationals and POC holders. Claims that the limit is “25” or was “reduced to 6 in December 2025” are myths with no PTA source — both should be treated as false.
| Tool | Looks at | Returns | Cost | Works overseas? |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| 668 (SMS) | Your own CNIC | Per-operator count of all your SIMs | About Rs 2 with tax | No — needs a Pakistani SIM |
| cnic.sims.pk | Your own CNIC / NICOP | Same count, shown on screen | Free | Yes — worldwide, no VPN |
| 667 (SMS “MNP”) | The SIM sending the message | That SIM’s own name, masked CNIC, IMSI, activation date | Standard SMS rate | No — must send from that SIM |
| 76367 (SMS “N”) | Any 11-digit number | That number’s current network only | About Rs 2 plus tax | No — needs a Pakistani SIM |
None of these four tools — the only genuine SIM-related self-checks available in Pakistan — ever returns a stranger’s name, address, or CNIC. If a search led you here expecting more than that, the honest answer is that no more exists to find, legally. For the fullest walkthrough of every self-check method, screenshots of what each result actually looks like, and troubleshooting for common errors, see our main SIM owner details guide. And if the enforcement side interests you — how PTA is actually cleaning up illegal SIMs at scale — PTA reported blocking more than 1.838 million illegal or non-compliant SIMs in the first seven months of 2026 alone (903,230 on deceased CNICs, 244,357 on invalid or expired-and-cancelled CNICs, and 691,102 other illegal SIMs), a figure distinct from NADRA’s earlier 17 June 2025 announcement that roughly 4,906,611 SIMs on expired or deceased CNICs would be blocked in phases going forward — that was a scope announcement, not a completed count.
Apni Zaban Mein
Roman Urdu mein samjhein — “SIM database” asal mein hai kya
Bohat se log Google pe “sim database”, “fresh sim database”, ya “live sim database” search karte hain is umeed se ke koi aisi website mil jaye jahan kisi ka bhi number daal ke uska naam, address, ya CNIC nikal aaye. Yahan seedhi baat samajh lein: aisi koi legal website Pakistan mein maujood nahi hai, aur na hi kabhi thi. PTA ka jo asal tareeqa hai wo sirf apna CNIC check karne ke liye hai — 668 pe SMS karein ya cnic.sims.pk website khol lein, wahan sirf itna pata chalta hai ke aapke apne CNIC pe kitni SIMs registered hain, kis network pe. Kisi doosre banday ka naam ya address kabhi nahi milta, chahe website kuch bhi claim kare.
“Fresh sim database” ya “online sim database free” jaisi websites zyada tar fraud hoti hain — ya to wo bas ads dikha ke waqt zaya karti hain, ya aapka apna CNIC/number chura leti hain, ya phir aisi app download karwati hain jo aapke contacts aur location tak access maang leti hai. Yaad rahe, kisi doosre insaan ki CNIC ya SIM detail bina uski ijazat ke haasil karna PECA 2016, Section 16 ke tehat jurm hai — teen saal tak jail aur 50 lakh rupay tak jurmana ho sakta hai. Agar koi aapko harass kar raha hai ya fraud kar raha hai, to sahi tareeqa yeh hai ke NCCIA ki helpline 1799 pe report karein, ya PTA ki complaint portal complaint.pta.gov.pk pe complaint darj karayein — koi “database” dhoondhne ki koshish na karein, kyunke wo cheez sirey se maujood hi nahi hai.
Frequently Asked
SIM database in Pakistan — frequently asked questions
Below are the most common questions readers ask about “sim database” searches, answered plainly and with the same legal limits explained throughout this page.
Is there a free SIM database in Pakistan?
No free public database returns another person’s SIM details in Pakistan. The only free legitimate tool is cnic.sims.pk, and it only returns a count of SIMs registered against the CNIC you personally enter — never a stranger’s name, address, or CNIC, regardless of what any site promises.
Does PTA maintain a public SIM database anyone can search?
No. PTA operates a self-check counter at cnic.sims.pk (and via SMS to 668), not a browsable public database. It answers exactly one question — how many SIMs are registered on the CNIC you enter — and only for the identity document you personally supply, never for someone else’s number.
What is a “fresh SIM database”?
It is not a real product. “Fresh sim database” is marketing language used by unauthorised or fraudulent sites to make an illegal identity-lookup claim sound like an up-to-date commercial offering. No PTA-authorised channel uses this phrase, and no legitimate database of SIM owners changes hands online this way.
Is sim database online real or fake?
Every site marketed as “sim database online” or “onlinesim database” that we have reviewed is either non-functional, a data-harvesting form, or an app requesting excessive permissions. None are affiliated with PTA, and none can legally or technically return a stranger’s SIM ownership details.
What do “sim database pak” or “sim data information” sites actually return when you search a number?
Typically nothing real: an endless loading spinner, a demand to share on WhatsApp, a request to download an app, or a hidden premium SMS charge. Some log the number and any CNIC you type, adding your data to lists used for future scam or spam campaigns rather than giving you a genuine result.
Can I use a “live sim database” website to track someone’s SIM location?
No. No legitimate tool tracks a SIM’s live location from the public internet, and offering to do so without the SIM owner’s authorisation is an offence under PECA 2016, Section 16. See our dedicated Live SIM Tracker page for a full breakdown of this specific claim.
What happens if I use a fake sim database site to look up someone’s number?
You risk three things: no real result, your own device or CNIC data being harvested for resale, and potential exposure under PECA 2016 Section 16 if the site frames your request as identity-information retrieval without the other person’s authorisation. It is safer, and lawful, to stick to checking your own CNIC only.
Why do sites like “simdatabase online com” ask me to enter my own CNIC first?
Some fake sites ask for your CNIC under the guise of “verifying you” before letting you search someone else’s number. This is a harvesting tactic — your CNIC has no legitimate role in looking up another person, and entering it hands your own identity data to an unverified, unauthorised operator.
What should I do if someone is misusing my number or harassing me?
Report it through official channels, not a “database” site: the NCCIA cyber helpline on 1799 (24/7, launched 3 June 2025) or complaint.nccia.gov.pk, and PTA’s complaint portal complaint.pta.gov.pk for telecom-specific issues (PTA also lists a general helpline, 0800-55055, on pta.gov.pk). These are the lawful routes to a real investigation.
How is cnic.sims.pk different from the “sim database” sites I see in ads?
cnic.sims.pk is PTA’s own branded portal (“PMD SIM Information System”), asks only for your own CNIC, is free, and returns a simple count table instantly. Ad-driven “sim database” sites use unrelated domains, ask for someone else’s number, and typically lead to ads, paywalls, or app downloads instead of a real result.
Can police or the NCCIA access a real subscriber database?
Under PECA 2016 and the Investigation Rules 2018, a police officer or investigation agency may formally require a service provider to submit a specific person’s subscriber information — but only for a person under an active, lawful investigation. This is a legal process for investigators, never a service the public can request for themselves.
How many SIMs can one CNIC legally hold in Pakistan?
Eight SIMs total per CNIC — five voice and three data — a limit set by the Supreme Court of Pakistan on 5 November 2015. Foreign nationals and POC holders are limited to 2 SIMs. Claims of a “25-SIM limit” or a reduction to “6 in December 2025” are unsourced myths, not PTA policy.
